Unknown Speaker 0:02
Music. Hello friends. I'm Amanda Barr and I'm Rebecca Lew Brennan, and welcome to Dance principles united the podcast together. We are passionate about helping studio owners with the business of running their studio Join us as we talk everything through marketing systems, studio culture, motherhood, life and everything in between. This is the dance principles United podcast.
Unknown Speaker 0:40
Hello everyone, and welcome to a super special episode of the dance principles United podcast. And it's super special because we're all together in person here at the Sofitel in darling Harbor, Sydney. How are we going? Amanda and Beck, super excited to be here. We love the soft hotel, doing a bit of a conference together, which has been amazing and learning. We always talk to our SGC peeps and tribe members about their learnings, and talk to you guys, and we're doing the same. We're learning from our business group. So it's been awesome, amazing. Yeah, absolutely. We definitely practice what we preach, and we're doing this one virtually, this conference. So we decided to get together in person, because we know that that's how we're going to get the most out of it. And we would have loved to have been in LA where the conference is happening, but this is the second best, right? Amanda, absolutely. I think that's really important, because we know that sometimes, when we watch zooms, you know, your computer pops up, and then the kids want something from the kitchen, and then you know what it's like. You're just sitting on your desktop and you're kind of scrolling on on your phone. So instead, we've hired a boardroom space in Sydney. We plugged our zoom screen into the big screen so we could be completely present at this online conference. So I think that's a really a big thing, right? Yeah, I think being present is the key. Absolutely. It's so hard to be present in today's world. It's like it is so difficult, absolutely so if you are listening or we're not going to be talking about our conference today, what we're talking about is look to toot our own horn a little bit. What we know that makes special working with dance principles United is that between the three of us, we've pretty much experienced every single level of dance studio ownership that there is right from starting out with, you know, zero, 30 students, 20 or 30 students, right up to those 700 800 student Plus studios bringing in well in excess of a million dollars in revenue, and everything in between. So we're going to do just a little bit of a mini series, I guess, over the next few podcasts talking about that, talking about Amanda and Beck's experiences with the different stages of growth and building up of their studios. Absolutely. I'm excited to get into it. Yeah. So we're gonna go talking about sort of where, where we work with some studio owners who are just starting out right, and their studios are in that phase of let's just call it. We're going to talk about like revenue levels for this podcast. I think that's a really easy way to put it. Guys, revenue is obviously just all the money that we bring in, so all the money that people pay us for fees, costumes, like, just money into our business. So the first level we're sort of talking about is zero to $250,000
Unknown Speaker 3:22
revenue in your studio. So for a lot of people that sort of, you know, just starting out, getting going the first few years, or maybe it's like, if you're still running your studio, was a bit of a side hustle, or something like that, lots of different, different places that people are at. So can you guys sort of talk about that first sort of tier of your studio growth will maybe start with you. Amanda, if you can remember back to the start? Well, that was a long time ago. It was 20 something years ago, and I was super young, so when I opened my studio, I took over someone else's lease. I think I had seven students from them when I took over their lease. But I did a big marketing campaign. I opened in the July school holidays, and I think we ended up with about like 40 ish, and then finished the year on about 90 ish by the end of the year to do the concert. So, you know, it was a pretty steep growth year in that I was also just to be completely transparent in high school, which is obviously things that were okay then, which is not probably okay there now, maybe not. But I had the deal for my mom and dad that they would sign this lease for me help me out with some startup money, with the deal that I finished high school and got good grades, so I had that going on as well. But, you know, it was interesting. I'm trying to think back to where I kind of hit that $250,000
Unknown Speaker 4:46
mark. And I think it was probably about maybe year three or year four, which is when I finished high school and put my all into it. And I think that's the big point, right? Like it's what you put into it. Because when I was doing it as a part time, I was getting part.
Unknown Speaker 5:00
Time results. When I started doing it full time, I got full time results. That was one of the comments in our coaching groups chat, part time, part time input equals part time results, yeah, yeah. I think that's so, so valuable. And yeah, when I was doing it as well as high school, I was getting part time results. When I put my full focus into it, I was getting much better results. So I think I was probably, as I said, hit that around that sort of year, four or something like that, but I was putting everything into it. Like, I don't know, what about you bet, when you were kind of at that stage, were you putting everything into it?
Unknown Speaker 5:38
Well, I bought my studio, and I was teaching at it full time. So I was teaching probably, you know, 30 hours a week, at least, maybe more. I was taking the majority of the classes at it.
Unknown Speaker 5:50
And I think it had seven, I remember exactly, it had 79 students at the time. And you know, that was probably a pretty big thing for me to take over the lease and all the things. Absolutely, it was a proper premises. It had two studios, yeah, so to take that over, and yeah, I just took it over and started from there, essentially. And I think I did work super duper hard in the first couple of years, for sure. Absolutely, yeah, I know I was teaching all the classes, doing all the things, but I think the admin side of it was really tricky for me. It's interesting, right? Because we kind of started having this chat off Mike before as well, about how much that's changed, yeah, because we're both talking 20 plus years ago, I think the systems of chat like there was no Facebook, there was no Instagram, there's no social media marketing. But there also was barely even, were you saying about email? There was no email like, you know, it was still newsletters that were printed correct and written, letters to parents and, yeah, feeds in an envelope and all of that envelope. Yeah, it was. It was a lot easier in a lot of senses, absolutely, because I think it really did come down to when I was running it, how good of a teacher I was, and that was really a solid, yeah, and I was a really good teacher, and that's what kept all I didn't do one single kid. I do love teaching. I didn't lose one single kid at the time of the takeover, because I was teaching the majority of the classes. So I think it was quite simple in that sense, absolutely. And I think the like, I guess that's kind of bringing it into another conversation, right? Like, love it or hate it. This is the world we live in.
Unknown Speaker 7:32
You know, we could all talk about how good the good old day, whatever, but that's not the case. So there's no point talking about that. I'm very much a let's not dwell in the past. Kind of person. The current landscape is that parents have high expectations, and there's a lot that goes into the admin side of a business. And you don't have a choice. You've got to do it now to thrive, you've got to do it. There's absolutely no choice about it. And
Unknown Speaker 7:56
to start with, you know, what you might have got away with 25 years ago is not what you're getting away with now, you know, there's no cash in an envelope that was actually just off. Can I just talk off topic, as if I could ever stop you talking?
Unknown Speaker 8:10
You say that,
Unknown Speaker 8:12
but my dad built a software system for me. I just just, I'm just telling back this more more than anything, to when we started, and that was like, revolutionary. He built me a whole maker Pro. It was called FileMaker Pro, and he called it dance sensations like and built me a software system that allowed me to do their fees terminally and to automatically build them to take do class roles. And he kept building it as he was going. And it was like, when I would tell people that we had, like, a software system that my dad had designed for me on a computer,
Unknown Speaker 8:47
like it was absolutely like it was, and we did everything, and like our invoices were, and because I, you know, I'd taken over the lease of the studio, and there was, you know, only seven people, but then we actually had a whole heap of kids join us from another studio as well.
Unknown Speaker 9:03
And the fact that we, like, had proper printed invoices that were written up properly, like it was mind blowing, right? Not have had any of that. I think we had the invoice book. Yeah,
Unknown Speaker 9:15
everything out, and I don't even think we had a computer at the studio. Yeah, it's crazy. How much things have changed, right? It's insane now that you're thinking about it and saying it like that, it's like, that's right, I forgot.
Unknown Speaker 9:28
So trying to try to bring our listeners back into, back into 2024, and if they're sort of at this phase of their studio growth journey now, you both sort of touched on it, the fact that, especially at the start, a dance studio is always going to be an owner, operator business. Absolutely, it's something that I obviously work with studio owners a lot on their numbers, and the biggest thing that drags down their profits is hiring too many staff and wage bloating. I call it. You guys both talked about the fact that you basically got in and.
Unknown Speaker 10:00
Did an overwhelming majority of it yourself, both from the teaching and or the admin side. Could you maybe just both expand on that a little bit Absolutely? So I think I probably, I probably taught those first two years, as I said, I was kind of part time in the studio. I probably taught about maybe 60 to 70% of the classes myself, and I did 100% of the admin. Percent of the admin, just to be super clear, I know this is kind of like going into the next one, I did 100% of the admin until we're at, like, 750,000 sort of thing. Like, for a very long time
Unknown Speaker 10:36
I did that. Yeah, so I guess that's kind of and I did most of it myself. I got in there and I did the hard work. I don't know about you, you probably taught every class, right? I think, well, apart from things I can't teach, like tap, I absolutely did teach every class, every private every preschool class. Yes, you know that's what I'm saying. That's a big one, every preschool. Because that's why I do say this to our clients a lot, because I know I talk about, you know, all the time, preschools are at my school every single morning, and I'm not there. But it definitely was not like that. For the first probably 15 years of me owning my studio, I literally taught every single preschool class and every class in general, and absolutely like I was doing the costume invoicing, I was doing the normal invoicing, I was doing all the things. I'm not saying I was doing it well, but I definitely was doing absolutely everything. Absolutely yeah, it's that hard thing, right? Like, if we're talking under $250,000
Unknown Speaker 11:30
you know, 10% straight away for GST, $220,000
Unknown Speaker 11:35
that's it, right? If you've got a lease, that's a good chunk of that change
Unknown Speaker 11:42
gone on that that's before, you know, we're talking revenue, don't forget. So that's before we've talked about, obviously, if you need to get in, you know, for me, I always had to have ballet teachers in the fact that if your studio does run two or three rooms, obviously you guys, when you guys were saying that you guys are teaching in Studio One, for example, absolutely you need to get somebody in for studio two and three, because you couldn't hologram yourself just yet. Well, yes, but under 250,000 we didn't have studio three. For example, it might have been two just sort of thing. But yes, absolutely, I didn't have hologram. My dad was good, but they did not make holograms.
Unknown Speaker 12:16
But, you know, like, I think doing it all, but yet, really thinking about the fact that under 250 as I said, you've obviously got the GST, you've got other staff, you know, teachers to pay. You've got your rent, like, by the time you've bought some costumes out of that, you've paid your theater venue and stuff. Like, you know, you need to be making 50,000 as a kind of minimum to live in the world these days, right? Like, absolute that's still like penny pinching. So there shouldn't be a lot of room. And I think that's one of the biggest mistakes I see studio owners make, is giving other people their wage. I find that that's such a big thing, right? Like, if you've only got X amount left, like, don't forget, every cent you give to another staff member is money that's coming away from you and not in your pocket, not in your family's pocket, or even if you're, you know, don't have a family, not in your pocket. Yeah, yes. Do I still think about that today? Yeah, you know, when I'm doing wages today, I'm like, it's, it's insane. Sometimes how much money you are giving out in wages. It could be straight into you if you did that, a little bit more work if you worked. I always think about that, right? Like, you know, we see a lot of the times geo owners bring in admin too early. And I think if you're under doing, if you're doing under 250,000 you shouldn't you should be doing all your admin yourself, just to be super clear, you should not be having admin help.
Unknown Speaker 13:36
And
Unknown Speaker 13:38
I always just think, okay, so if you brought in someone, but could you do that work in five hours a week? Maybe does is that mean, get up earlier, one hour a week, you know, one hour a day, sorry, and doing an extra one hour a day like and then being able to take that extra money like that is such a big difference. I don't know. Does that make? Like? No, absolutely. And I think that sort of leads into my next question. I think a lot of studio owners, especially that we work with very closely. I've seen both of you guys and talk a lot about the end of your studio owner journey, because that's lots of what we share now, and especially both of you within your studios. Amanda, towards the end, because we've sold, we sold our studio, obviously. And Beck, you're still currently in your studio at the moment, and a lot of what you talk about is the leadership of your team and the fact that you have bought on team members to handle more of the admin, more of the advertising, more of the different things that go into running our studios. But once upon a time, especially when you were back in those early phases, like you even talk about Beck, you were the one sitting there learning how to run Facebook ads. Amanda, you were the one that made sure you understood your dance studio owner software. When you switched over to Jackrabbit, you didn't outsource that to a staff member. No, absolutely not. You made sure that any new system that you bought on place. You were the one that understood it best.
Unknown Speaker 15:00
Then you would outsource it to somebody else. Could you maybe both, yeah, talk about that sort of how you started out doing all the things well before you started outsourcing. Yeah. Well, I think,
Unknown Speaker 15:13
you know, keeping in the theme of this podcast, I guess is, you know very much. So I did every single thing, and I knew how to do every single thing. I would never outsource anything until I had a complete understanding of that. Nathan brought up, like Facebook ads, for example, such a good example, or software. But also in terms of, for me, you know, I don't have a strong ballet background, but you know what? I made sure I understood. I made sure I understood that R, I d syllabus like nothing else. I understood how exams work, I would never have relied on a teacher, an employee. And I've seen other studios. It's interesting because I've seen someone recently burnt by this going, Oh, I didn't know that they needed to be taught exercise, whatever, for their exams, because I didn't read the syllabus. I don't understand. So for me, it was very important that I understand, yes, I wasn't teaching the ballet syllabus, but I understood exactly what the requirements were. Same with cheer. I didn't teach cheer, but I I made sure I had the best understanding I possibly could, so I could always be checking in on my team members and not just relying on someone else
Unknown Speaker 16:15
as well. Oh yeah, I went and got my qualifications, even though I had no intentions of ever this is for cheer. For example, I'm a church cheer certified coach,
Unknown Speaker 16:25
because I want to make sure I understand what I'm giving away before I give it away, right? Absolutely. Well, I know, like, yeah, Facebook ads is a big one, because I had to learn a lot. And, you know, I find it really difficult to get my head around any of that stuff that took me a long time and consistent, going over and over and over it, which I know people still have to do now, I just Yes, yeah, it's just like you do. And I know that when we bought the software system in we didn't have Jackrabbit, but we had dance biz, same thing. I knew that inside out, I was the one using it. No one else was using it. So yeah, definitely I can, yeah. I forget about this stuff.
Unknown Speaker 17:06
Yeah. I like, forget about that. But yes, that was absolutely the first, fully, yeah, 12 years I was the person doing all of that stuff, absolutely, absolutely, because that's the way that you don't get burned. And that's what, that's what I see, unfortunately, too often with dance studio owners, is that we end up seeing them having spent, and a lot of the times, unfortunately, wasted, loads of money on getting somebody to do the Facebook ads they've been taken for a bit of a ride in that we're just using that because it's an easy example. Yeah, absolutely, because they don't understand how to when they do bring somebody in, how to ask the right questions. When you first bought somebody in Beck, you were up to date on Facebook ads, you would have been making sure that you could say, well, hang on, I've done this. I know that it should be a little bit like this. Like, why is it not like, how can you level up my general expertise? I think that's the thing, right? Like, you have to have a general understanding of it, and then you bring someone in to level it up? Yeah, absolutely. And that, you know, you guys both talked about knowing those systems inside out, and that's what would have maybe I'm putting words in your mouth, but maybe I can ask it as a question, how do you think that helped you then? And I know we're going to go into this in like, the next episode. But how did putting in the groundwork at this lower level, the zero to 250k revenue, help you get ready to push on into the next sort of level of your studio. Oh, I think, you know, obviously it was a long time ago for me, but teaching me that hard work pays off, and it's one thing that I really teach. You know, I was teaching, talking to my daughter about this the other day, my my eldest daughter, academically, is very intelligent,
Unknown Speaker 18:46
but I told her that, you know, we were having a conversation about, you know, how I've been successful is through hard work, not through natural ability, which, you know, is the same as academics. It's the same with dance, right? But, you know, hard, what's that quote by the you know, some famous NBA players, like, with very few exceptions, the hard, you know that hardest worker is the most successful, or something like that. I can't think of the quote off top of my head, but it is that right, like, it's hard, work pays off. And I think that that really taught me that at that 250 because I wanted to hustle, I wanted to work hard so that I could push past that. I wanted to push hard so I could make the money that I wanted to make, and I deserve to make, because if you're working full time in your studio, you deserve to make more than $50,000 a year because it is a hard job with a lot of qualifications. I think that's a big thing for me. You deserve all that money. You've done a lot of training, you're an expert in your craft, and you deserve to be paid for it. Oh, I'm so passionate about that. Now, I definitely wasn't at that time. Yeah, I didn't care about money at all. It's interesting how much it's flipped for me when I'm thinking about this now. But I really didn't I all I cared about was the win they're getting.
Unknown Speaker 20:00
Kids to be that elite level, to getting them careers in dance, to that whole side of my studio was so much more important to me. But I, I totally agree with you with the hard work stuff. And I talk to my students about this every single day is hard work equals success. And anyone, if you looking at anyone successful in life, and I can vouch for you and I and anyone else. I always use the Kardashians as the example, because everyone thinks the Kardashians live this beautiful, glamorous life where they're just chilling, you know, in drinking champagne on boats, on their really, really comfy looking couches. I always say to my students, they are, I think, probably the hardest working family in the whole of the world right now and and the thing is, they are hustling every single day. They are working massive hours. And if you don't think that, you just don't realize that hard work does equal success, and you you have to have to realize that to get there. I couldn't agree with you more on that, yeah, but yeah, I was never focused on that money. I did want to grow my studio, absolutely at a point, but probably for the first five or six years, I was so much more focused on other things, which was silly, because you you have to have a balance. You've got to realize that, because then what happens is, and what happened with me was I started to resent it, and I started to hate it, and then I was crying and upset all the time because I wasn't making any money off the thing that I was working my guts out for. Yeah, so it's a silly way, if you're a starting studio owner and you are at that point, make them both equal. That's a big, huge bit of advice. Yeah, absolutely. And that like you've basically, basically started answering my next question that I was going to ask, Beck, making sure, how did both of you we talked about, like, we're talking about revenue, obviously, zero to 250 zero to 250,000 but a huge part of making of having any business run is there's a big difference between revenue and profits. And we want at every stage of your studio owner journey to make sure that your business is profitable. And when we talk profit, we mean the money going in your pocket, so that can include your wage. So like thinking back to it, Amanda, do you sort of remember how profitable the studio was when you were starting out those first few years? You were maybe at a different phase in your life, because you would have been reinvesting hard. I was reinvesting hard. And, you know, I can't sit here and pretend like I could tell you the numbers off the top of my head of what I was paying myself, but I know that I was watching the dollars and cents. I was watching how many people I was employing. I was, you know, doing the cleaning so that I could save money. I was very adamant. I wanted to buy a house by the time I was 20, and I was very like, set on that I didn't get it till just after my 21st birthday.
Unknown Speaker 22:39
What an underachievement.
Unknown Speaker 22:42
But, you know, I was watching every dollar and cents, so I can't tell talk about the exact figure, and also, you know, money's changed, obviously, but I was watching what I was spending, because I wanted to put as much into my pocket at that point as possible, whilst reinvesting it and continuing to grow my business. I wanted, you know what I wanted to do. Could I just be completely honest, tell me I wanted to prove to all those stupid people that were saying to me, ah, a dance. You're you're in a debt. And what else? What are you going to do when you grow up? What's your real job are you going to go to? What are you doing at uni? Right? And I was at uni as well, just, but I had all of that. Oh, so is this just to get you through uni? I wanted to prove to those people, before I finished my degree, that which I didn't do, PS,
Unknown Speaker 23:32
but that this was a legitimate job, and I wanted to prove that, and I was very headstrong on those. You know, we've all had those people in our life, right? Like, and what are you really gonna do? Yeah, that was my thing. I don't know. What about you? Yeah, I wasn't like that at all. Yeah, different, yay. What was the question? Also, I was like, we're talking about revenue, but like, at that stage of your studio, how profitable Do you think you would, like, you basically touched on it just before. Like, I wouldn't, I would, I wouldn't have even known what revenue was. Yep, probably didn't even know how much money was coming in. No idea. I would have just spent money as it was, in the account I would never, ever have even looked at that. Would you have been paying yourself a regular wage? I doubt it. I doubt it. I probably just spent the money out of the account like I wouldn't have even had my own account. Yeah, I would have just spent the money out of the business that was left, which we see people doing now, sale, yeah, for groceries or for rent or whatever it was. I would have just spent that money out of it. I wouldn't have had any idea how many class places I had. I would have not known none of those things.
Unknown Speaker 24:41
But I tell you what I would have known, exactly what exam result every single child in that studio got the year before, what my expectation was the year after. So it's just a very different focus for me. And like, if I was trying to prove anything, it was probably that I could be that studio owner that got those results Absolutely.
Unknown Speaker 25:00
Results. So we're both working hard, but on different things, right? Like, it's that funny thing, yeah? Okay, amazing. So maybe, to wrap this up, could you guys maybe give us the top three tips for studio owners who are maybe in this phase of their studio owner journey? So top three tips for moving out of this zero to 250, K revenue into the next phase of this awesome I'll give mine, and then we'll see how yours go with it. Is that what we'll do? Okay, one, one. All right, we'll see how many. Let's see how many we get to, okay, short, sharp tips that you should be doing 90% of the work yourself at that phase. I think you know, or close to like, it's hard to like quantify, but you should be doing the majority of the teaching and all the admin. If you're passionate about teaching kids dance, learn the business side now and learn the systems, learn all of those things. Know your numbers. Teach Yourself that stuff, because that's going to help you to scale. Otherwise, you're just going to keep teaching great dance, which is great, but you're not going to actually ever be able to get past that point, absolutely. And I think that's comes into investing in yourself, whether that's investing yourself by listening to podcasts, which you're obviously doing, you know, learning things on YouTube,
Unknown Speaker 26:16
you know, joining a group like dance principles, United tribe, whatever that is coming to events like dance teacher Expo, invest in your growth. I think that is a really big one that I guess kind of goes hand in hand with that. Yeah, and we're not just saying that because we run those things. We're literally saying it because that was the game well, for me, that was definitely the big game changer was when I did actually start investing in my own learning. Then I did start making money, and then I did actually pay myself a wage and do things properly. And that's how I've gotten to where I am now, which is why we do, well, what I do this is because I'm so passionate about seeing other studio owners get to that. Yeah, so was that your second tip? Manager? No, if that's my second tip, can I give another tip? Though? Of course.
Unknown Speaker 27:01
Um, my other
Unknown Speaker 27:04
sorry. We just really get off topic. Start ranting. Welcome to my life. Podcast listeners, welcome to my life. So my next tip is, don't give away money that could be in your pocket. Amazing. You know, I think you really need to make sure that you aren't just employing people. I think sometimes, like, I've got to be honest, I think sometimes it's an egotistical thing that you're employing people to look like you have staff members and you're a legitimate business, or something along those lines. It is much more impressive to hustle and do it yourself and put that money in your pocket so that you can grow to the next phase, because that takes money, and you need that in your pocket or in your bank account so that you can grow to the next phase, if that's what you want to do, if you want to get past that 250
Unknown Speaker 27:50
and start paying yourself more money. And can I be a little bit controversial as well? I do think sometimes I see studio owners doing it just to have someone to hang out with, yes, and like to, you know, bounce ideas around or whatever. Yeah, I get it, but sometimes you can't afford it as well. Yeah, so just be mindful. Hang out with other studio owners online.
Unknown Speaker 28:12
Another tip, my last one, controversial as well, shocking. Stop bullshitting yourself that you're working your guts out like I just think sometimes we see people who think that they're working really, really hard, but actually they're just making themselves busy for the sake of making themselves busy. And I think you have to be really real about that. And there were times, definitely in my studio journey, where I worked my absolute guts out, and there were times where I was really fucking lazy as well, and I think I bullshitted myself at that time that I was so busy. So really be self aware with that, I think. And yeah, just be careful of it is owning a small business is really, really hard work, and it's lonely. It is lonely, but it also can be the most rewarding, amazing thing as well. Absolutely, I love that. I think that's a good thing to wrap it up on. And I agree. I think it is hard work. And if you want to put you know, be paying yourself a really good sustainable wage, I think you need to look at what your sustainability wage is. And let's be honest, in today's climate, $50,000
Unknown Speaker 29:17
isn't really a sustainable wage for a long period of time, it doesn't buy you enough anymore, right? So you really need to be pushing past that 250 because we know that that's kind of, you know, hopefully you are paying yourself a little bit more, but there isn't usually a lot more gravy in there if you're at a revenue under 250 so you really need to push past that so then you can take your wage up. So I think know your numbers so you know what you want to get to and what the goal is amazing. Well, thank you so much for joining us in this first part of our little series on all the different and various wonderful stages of growing your dance studio. And can't wait to chat to you for part two. Thanks everyone. Hi. We.
Unknown Speaker 30:00
Hope you enjoyed this episode of the dance principles United podcast. If you'd love to learn more from us, we have a special offer just for our podcast listeners, go to the link in the show notes right now to get two weeks free in dance principles United tribe. We would love to see you there. You
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